Love this duo! Thank you for making this episode and I genuinely hope there is more where this came from!!
I think what’s missing from a lot of the discussion around Ballerina Farm is what you get to at the end— that white women’s complicity and alignment with white men is necessary for the perpetuation of systems of oppression. Throughout history, white women have aligned ourselves with the patriarchy for personal gain at critical moments instead of aligning ourselves with the best interest of other oppressed groups (I.e. more white women voted for Trump than Clinton in 2016… i.e we are why Clinton lost the election.. i.e we are a huge problem). It’s not so much that Ballerina Farm and others like her haven’t seen the light, it’s that they’ve seen glimmers and know there’s more to personally gain by choosing something else.
Yes, Ballerina Farm may have given up her dream of being a professional ballet dancer— a dream that would have paid her $30K a year to physically and emotionally strain herself until the ripe age of retirement at 35– but she gave up that dream in order to marry a billionaire and use her skills for performance elsewhere (ie on social media media and in beauty pageants). With the privilege she acquired by making the choice to stay in alignment with white patriarchy and Mormonism, she built herself an even bigger stage. Maybe it wasn’t the stage she envisioned, but, for better or worse, who among us accomplished a “dream” in the exact way we said we would at age 19?
I really appreciate the discussion on free will and grappling with the idea of if Ballerina Farm is a victim or a willing participant. I think I lean toward the latter, but caveats abound. I highly, highly recommend reading Women, Race and Class by Angela Davis and Why I’m Not a Feminist by Jessa Crispin (don’t let the title fool you… Jessa is absolutely a feminist, as am I 🙃). They both talk a lot about the complicity of white women— a topic that is in flashing lights when I look at Ballerina Farm and her 9.5 million followers!
Thanks for leaving such a thoughtful comment — I’ve been thinking a lot since we recorded about Caro’s comment about making another option look good. Aka, we need the equal but opposite PR campaign that patriarchy is currently running for white women
Did anyone else find it incredibly bizarre when Daniel made the comment about her always getting pregnant 9 months after giving birth? She was basically like yeah it's God's will, and he was basically like *well it is God's will but it also somehow always seems to happen 9 months after childbirth like clockwork 🤠*..... Why did he say that? What was that supposed to signify? 🥴🤔
Jul 31Liked by caro claire burke, Katie Gatti Tassin
I'm going to treat this like a live tweet session bc I have thoughts every five minutes here but I feel an obligation to start with the first gag because ma'am did you just say "HITLER YOUTH AESTHETIC"?! 😭🥴 my soul fled my body PLEASE I can.notttt 😆🫠
My husband, who grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, is hate-obsessed with trad wives. He went through every picture and pointed out how dumb they were. His favorite was milking a cow into a pitcher, while holding the pitcher with one hand. Then another picture showed her pouring the pitcher into a milk bucket. He couldn't get over it, and also how clean she was. I'm very city and didn't really tune in to it until he pointed it out and now it's all I can see.
One thing I personally think about in relation to white feminism is girlhood. I am a white, college educated person, and despite myself, I kind of love "girlhood" and I feel guilty or wrong for it. What is it about marriage/romance/true love/fairy tale/happy ending stories that has my liberal brain in a choke hold?
(Only tangentially related but I'd actually love your thoughts). Great conversation!!
I feel the very similarly! Your tangential thought on girlhood reminds me so much of the monologue from Fleabag when she’s “confessing” to the “hot priest”…I think she articulates this ennui (or something else that I don’t have the word for) that I’ve also felt. If you haven’t seen it recently, def check out the clip. season 2 ep 5.
It’s almost like a cognitive dissonance that is deeply, culturally ingrained in us. Girls can do anything but also you’ll only be truly happy with the fairy tale ending. I don’t think it’s actually moral to want those things at all, but I do think it’s construed by our society (and benevolent or [maybe malevolent?] patriarchy). Perhaps it’s just cultural hegemony doing its job *really* well.
AND also how exhausting independence is? I think maybe we’ve culturally conflated feminism WITH individualism, which doesn’t really work for our species. We need to belong, we need community, and fulfilling relationships with others. The main idea posited to young girls in America is that you can obtain those relationships, that community, but only through romantic love and, ergo, marriage…and children, etc. Those aren’t wrong choices, but they’re not the only legitimate ones, either. The “two things can be true at once if it all” (hopefully). Maybe it’s the inherited, puritanical black-and-white, good-or-evil, feel-guilt-and-shame-or-feel-holier-than-thou false binary we’ve generally inherited in the US? Idk this topic takes up a lot of my brain space, obviously.
What’s interesting about your question on the exhaustion of independence is that women’s lives rarely get less exhausting post-fairytale romance. That is usually where the really exhausting activities kick in. Caring for a husband, kids, parents… but it takes time to realize life is getting harder not easier.
This. I was just going to reply that it might be age-related. My attraction to the fairy tale went out the window with marriage (decades) and realizing how much freaking work it requires of me to run the house and take care of and parent 4 kids. And it is made all the worse if you do not have an equal partner in this venture. If you marry someone who believes in that “provider” mentality and all he does is work (yes long hours) and occasionally helps out (if asked) but yet believes he is doing “so much” (bc he does more than his Boomer father ever did), well then, life is quite easier single-parenting and being independent. Sad but true.
Two of my favorite people to consume information from individually. You are both so well spoken, researched, and thoughtful. Together you are the gold medal duo in cultural commentary!! Please give the people more!
My mind isn’t as sharp as Katie’s and Caro’s, but from what my tired mother-of-young-children mind could understand, I think you hit the nail on the head re: benevolent patriarchy and Mormons. My experience with the church (I was excommunicated in 2016) is that the patriarchal structure, the Priesthood, forces men into caretaking from a young age, which is generally not bad and probably why so many people are defending Daniel and their marriage. I don’t totally understand the meaning and use of the term “benevolent patriarchy” but it’s… a bad thing? Everyone is happy with their illusion of choice? What is the term for a patriarchy that is actually in service of equality and choices? Is there a term for it, or would patriarchy be left out and it’s some middle ground between patriarchy and matriarchy? Middle… archy? 😂
Egalitarianism, maybe? No form of patriarchy can truly be benevolent; the term is confusing because it sounds beneficial but it’s a myth/way of presenting patriarchy that makes it look like a decent choice. For what it’s worth, I’m down for matriarchy. Let the record reflect that. Haha
So in the Mormon church it (technically, they are called Latter Day Saints, not Mormons) when I was growing up in it there was this idea or belief (not doctrine, as far as I know) that the priesthood is given to men because they aren’t born “holding the hand of God” the way women are because of our ability to create and nurture life. My experience of the priesthood, or the patriarchal structure of the church, was very positive on an organizational and personal level. So is it … egalitarian? Even though the organizational power is reserved for men? Or is it benevolent patriarchy, and my experience is an illusion?
Loved this so much and very much agreed with what you both said. You also have such a great dynamic and back and forth!! I could listen to a podcast with you two for days!!
Loved this episode!! Curious if you have read the book Billionaire Wilderness? There are some fascinating interviews in there. I am clearly obsessed with the ultra-wealthy cosplaying cowboy phenomenon lol
Love this duo! Thank you for making this episode and I genuinely hope there is more where this came from!!
I think what’s missing from a lot of the discussion around Ballerina Farm is what you get to at the end— that white women’s complicity and alignment with white men is necessary for the perpetuation of systems of oppression. Throughout history, white women have aligned ourselves with the patriarchy for personal gain at critical moments instead of aligning ourselves with the best interest of other oppressed groups (I.e. more white women voted for Trump than Clinton in 2016… i.e we are why Clinton lost the election.. i.e we are a huge problem). It’s not so much that Ballerina Farm and others like her haven’t seen the light, it’s that they’ve seen glimmers and know there’s more to personally gain by choosing something else.
Yes, Ballerina Farm may have given up her dream of being a professional ballet dancer— a dream that would have paid her $30K a year to physically and emotionally strain herself until the ripe age of retirement at 35– but she gave up that dream in order to marry a billionaire and use her skills for performance elsewhere (ie on social media media and in beauty pageants). With the privilege she acquired by making the choice to stay in alignment with white patriarchy and Mormonism, she built herself an even bigger stage. Maybe it wasn’t the stage she envisioned, but, for better or worse, who among us accomplished a “dream” in the exact way we said we would at age 19?
I really appreciate the discussion on free will and grappling with the idea of if Ballerina Farm is a victim or a willing participant. I think I lean toward the latter, but caveats abound. I highly, highly recommend reading Women, Race and Class by Angela Davis and Why I’m Not a Feminist by Jessa Crispin (don’t let the title fool you… Jessa is absolutely a feminist, as am I 🙃). They both talk a lot about the complicity of white women— a topic that is in flashing lights when I look at Ballerina Farm and her 9.5 million followers!
Thanks for leaving such a thoughtful comment — I’ve been thinking a lot since we recorded about Caro’s comment about making another option look good. Aka, we need the equal but opposite PR campaign that patriarchy is currently running for white women
Did anyone else find it incredibly bizarre when Daniel made the comment about her always getting pregnant 9 months after giving birth? She was basically like yeah it's God's will, and he was basically like *well it is God's will but it also somehow always seems to happen 9 months after childbirth like clockwork 🤠*..... Why did he say that? What was that supposed to signify? 🥴🤔
yes. totally clocked that and was like, what’s the significance here? The consistency??
This is my favorite partnership of all time
😭😂 I just love yapping with Caro
I'm going to treat this like a live tweet session bc I have thoughts every five minutes here but I feel an obligation to start with the first gag because ma'am did you just say "HITLER YOUTH AESTHETIC"?! 😭🥴 my soul fled my body PLEASE I can.notttt 😆🫠
YOU KNOW ITS TRUE!!! lol
My husband, who grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, is hate-obsessed with trad wives. He went through every picture and pointed out how dumb they were. His favorite was milking a cow into a pitcher, while holding the pitcher with one hand. Then another picture showed her pouring the pitcher into a milk bucket. He couldn't get over it, and also how clean she was. I'm very city and didn't really tune in to it until he pointed it out and now it's all I can see.
One thing I personally think about in relation to white feminism is girlhood. I am a white, college educated person, and despite myself, I kind of love "girlhood" and I feel guilty or wrong for it. What is it about marriage/romance/true love/fairy tale/happy ending stories that has my liberal brain in a choke hold?
(Only tangentially related but I'd actually love your thoughts). Great conversation!!
I feel the very similarly! Your tangential thought on girlhood reminds me so much of the monologue from Fleabag when she’s “confessing” to the “hot priest”…I think she articulates this ennui (or something else that I don’t have the word for) that I’ve also felt. If you haven’t seen it recently, def check out the clip. season 2 ep 5.
It’s almost like a cognitive dissonance that is deeply, culturally ingrained in us. Girls can do anything but also you’ll only be truly happy with the fairy tale ending. I don’t think it’s actually moral to want those things at all, but I do think it’s construed by our society (and benevolent or [maybe malevolent?] patriarchy). Perhaps it’s just cultural hegemony doing its job *really* well.
AND also how exhausting independence is? I think maybe we’ve culturally conflated feminism WITH individualism, which doesn’t really work for our species. We need to belong, we need community, and fulfilling relationships with others. The main idea posited to young girls in America is that you can obtain those relationships, that community, but only through romantic love and, ergo, marriage…and children, etc. Those aren’t wrong choices, but they’re not the only legitimate ones, either. The “two things can be true at once if it all” (hopefully). Maybe it’s the inherited, puritanical black-and-white, good-or-evil, feel-guilt-and-shame-or-feel-holier-than-thou false binary we’ve generally inherited in the US? Idk this topic takes up a lot of my brain space, obviously.
I’m curious about your thoughts?
What’s interesting about your question on the exhaustion of independence is that women’s lives rarely get less exhausting post-fairytale romance. That is usually where the really exhausting activities kick in. Caring for a husband, kids, parents… but it takes time to realize life is getting harder not easier.
This. I was just going to reply that it might be age-related. My attraction to the fairy tale went out the window with marriage (decades) and realizing how much freaking work it requires of me to run the house and take care of and parent 4 kids. And it is made all the worse if you do not have an equal partner in this venture. If you marry someone who believes in that “provider” mentality and all he does is work (yes long hours) and occasionally helps out (if asked) but yet believes he is doing “so much” (bc he does more than his Boomer father ever did), well then, life is quite easier single-parenting and being independent. Sad but true.
This thread is really insightful and I appreciate you guys taking the time to share what you’re thinking about
Two of my favorite people to consume information from individually. You are both so well spoken, researched, and thoughtful. Together you are the gold medal duo in cultural commentary!! Please give the people more!
Wow, I am beaming at my phone. Thank you so much!! We fully intend to keep going!
My mind isn’t as sharp as Katie’s and Caro’s, but from what my tired mother-of-young-children mind could understand, I think you hit the nail on the head re: benevolent patriarchy and Mormons. My experience with the church (I was excommunicated in 2016) is that the patriarchal structure, the Priesthood, forces men into caretaking from a young age, which is generally not bad and probably why so many people are defending Daniel and their marriage. I don’t totally understand the meaning and use of the term “benevolent patriarchy” but it’s… a bad thing? Everyone is happy with their illusion of choice? What is the term for a patriarchy that is actually in service of equality and choices? Is there a term for it, or would patriarchy be left out and it’s some middle ground between patriarchy and matriarchy? Middle… archy? 😂
Egalitarianism, maybe? No form of patriarchy can truly be benevolent; the term is confusing because it sounds beneficial but it’s a myth/way of presenting patriarchy that makes it look like a decent choice. For what it’s worth, I’m down for matriarchy. Let the record reflect that. Haha
So in the Mormon church it (technically, they are called Latter Day Saints, not Mormons) when I was growing up in it there was this idea or belief (not doctrine, as far as I know) that the priesthood is given to men because they aren’t born “holding the hand of God” the way women are because of our ability to create and nurture life. My experience of the priesthood, or the patriarchal structure of the church, was very positive on an organizational and personal level. So is it … egalitarian? Even though the organizational power is reserved for men? Or is it benevolent patriarchy, and my experience is an illusion?
Great inaugural episode! Can’t wait to hear more! 😊
Loved this so much and very much agreed with what you both said. You also have such a great dynamic and back and forth!! I could listen to a podcast with you two for days!!
brilliant, responsible, and generous. thank you!
Toy castle 😂
Loved this episode!! Curious if you have read the book Billionaire Wilderness? There are some fascinating interviews in there. I am clearly obsessed with the ultra-wealthy cosplaying cowboy phenomenon lol