So glad you talked about the 'soft girl' to 'feminism was a mistake for making me work' pipeline because so much of the content that floats across my TikTok FYP feels like it's in the same family of of having liberal/leftist sympathetic lean on the surface but is actually a trojan horse secular pipeline to the alt right. Perhaps y'all don't get this on your algos because you're both married, but dating tok feels like a particular gender essentialist hell between the 'sprinkle sprinkle' hypergamy or the interest in the 4B movement which can take justified frustrations with misogyny and lead you to the 'men are inherently evil' view and TERFism.
I'm so happy you brought this up; I think you'll love the "Taking the Pink Pill" section of this paper, which gets into how this stuff shows up on dating TikTok and other spaces that supposedly teach women how to land 'high value men': https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14680777.2024.2393187#d1e532
It's interesting how much it mirrors the manosphere content and sort of reduces all of human interaction to gender essentialist game theory. very bleak lol
Okay I am so late to finishing this, but wow, this episode was incredible. Creating work that is simultaneously rigorous, accessible, engaging, and funny is difficult to do, but you two seem to do it every time. Really great job.
So Isabelle cherry picked her data, with resident physicians salaries. Resident physician salary is controlled in a top down government mandated manner. So of course the wage gap is zero when you start your career as a physician.
I didn't realize this about government-mandated salaries for resident physicians! thanks for sharing. I just remembered seeing the Health Affairs study that very clearly proves the controlled wage gap is alive and well in medicine so I was like, bullshit alarm is screeching lmao
Happy to hear someone talking about how the republican plan for women is simply for us to “marry rich”.
I feel this point is missed in many conversations about this. Logistically if all women left the workforce most families could not and would not survive being thrown deep (or deeper) into poverty.
I definitely think it’s interesting that you point out that the author sounds like they hate men. It can definitely be easy and honestly understandable for women to have this view that all men are awful. This view is often shaped by trauma but it acts like men are these evil beings and doesn’t dig into how the patriarchy has also impacted men.
The Institute of Family Studies and its connection with UVA is just beyond my understanding. Is there a comparable progressive Institute that UVA sponsors/funds? And W. Bradford Wilcox. Don't even get me started. Just last week UVA named him a "University Professor, one of the University’s most prestigious appointments." All the eyerolls here. The IFS research is not reviewed; they don't allow comments on their articles to point out contra research; and, the man clearly has an agenda -- all marriage all the time for all the things b/c marriage is a cure-all for everything. And yet IFS (and Wilcox himself) doesn't support any family-friendly policies. IFS wants women in the home no matter what and they are quick to blame women's high expectations for male loneliness and declining birthrates -- you know, blame women rather than educate men on how to be better partners. The Wilcox message is literally, "just settle" -- not only does he mean settle-down and get married, but actually, literally, settle for less, expect less. Fuck that shit.
In Caro’s point of women hated/were terrified of childbirth because they could die…
In addition to all the normal risks of pregnancy, the more kids you have the higher the risk for a hemorrhage, and this was one of the main reasons people died in the 1800s and before then because they did not have access to medication’s to prevent these hemorrhages, blood transfusions, etc.
Not sure on this 24 hour male cycle but 😂 it’s probably from the same people who wrote a book saying birth control affects how you are attracted to people and makes you want to choose the bad boys so 🤷♀️
Great ep as always. Started listening to "who cooked Adam Smith's dinner" (yay library!) and was almost immediately reminded of a book I was gifted a while back (maybe a decade now) called "The Intellectual Life". The gist of the book is basically "here's how to organize your life so you can be an intellectual" and it basically tells the reader to ignore all household labor (that's for your wife), don't spend that much time with your kids (that's for your wife), and a number of other things. I would use different language now, but I remember being super bothered with it then because it just seemed to be saying "abandon your family to pursue being an 'intellectual'".
I think that we have so much of our society built around these ideas that were just based on a very specific person or group of people and now we all have to live with it (eg Adam Smith). Western intellectual supremacy yada yada but it's all tied together.
I know y'all make some of these connections too, but this "reactionary feminism" you go through just has to fit hand in hand with the opposite "alpha male" who has to work over and above in his job, some side gig on top of that, be in tip top shape, etc etc - ignoring all the underlying labor required to make that lifestyle possible.
Think it's good and important to harp over and over on the WEAK IMAGINATIONS that exist if that is the ultimate ideal.
Also, couldn't help but think about how different Bell Hooks' "feminism is for everybody" is than the fourth-wave(?) feminism outlined that spouted the same!
James, this makes me think of an ex of mine that was a PhD professor. He was describing what his doctorate program was like, and all I could think was, "Wow, you have to be incredibly selfish to get through this program." I'm sure that's not always the case, but the way he did it sure put his wife at the time in a difficult position (moving to several states, sacrificing her personal life for his career, etc.). His salary as a professor (even after tenure) was eclipsed by her salary as an engineer.
Also listening back I can’t find the exact spot, but there’s a mention somewhere in here to the tune of “one parent staying home to offset the cost of out-of-home childcare is a failure of capitalism [the economic system]”… is that linked anywhere? Would love to read if so. If that was just Katie going off the top, standing ovation!
There are multiple studies in Canada which show a gender pay gap in medicine, when controlled for hours, and specialty choice. Also, interestingly - procedures for women are paid less… so specialties which treat women are paid less (gyne).
This is true! To the point that circumcisions for BABIES are reimbursed very close to a vaginal delivery when you look at RVU which is the units they use to calculate reimbursement. Which is 🤯
There is a prominent Mormon speaker and byu professor named Brad Wilcox who constantly has absolutely horrible takes and when you brought up W Bradford Wilcox my heart literally stopped for a second lmao
So far love this episode and not even an hour in, but I wanted to weigh in on Katie‘s amazing data evidence for the gender pay gap in medicine. One of the main reasons for this is the fact that women tend to negotiate less than men and two often tend to be like less vocal about the iniquities that we face in the workplace. Linda Street, who is an MFM in Georgia, has a course specifically dedicated to women physicians to help them in their negotiation for better compensation as a whole and empowering them to advocate at the same level that men do in the profession.
As for testosterone in women. It is normal for women to have testosterone but the high levels can hinder ovulation and increase risk for endometrial cancer for example. For women with PCOSS they are not put on the pill to lower the testosterone but really to reduce excess estrogen exposure and lower the risk of endometrial cancer.
thank you for this info, especially the bit about testosterone! re: negotiation: i've read papers about negotiation parity more generally (not medicine specific) that suggest the negotiation gap has mostly closed, so this is interesting to hear w/r/t the medical field.
The reason is we are taught none of this in medschool . Often men tend to teach other men this in their training but not necessarily teach the women. If you have good mentors you may learn this hut otherwise it’s a “figure it out on your own” kinda thing.
I was waiting on yall to draw a line between women giving up freedom in the name of "collapsing capitalism" to Americans giving up privacy for security a la the Patriot Act.
So glad you talked about the 'soft girl' to 'feminism was a mistake for making me work' pipeline because so much of the content that floats across my TikTok FYP feels like it's in the same family of of having liberal/leftist sympathetic lean on the surface but is actually a trojan horse secular pipeline to the alt right. Perhaps y'all don't get this on your algos because you're both married, but dating tok feels like a particular gender essentialist hell between the 'sprinkle sprinkle' hypergamy or the interest in the 4B movement which can take justified frustrations with misogyny and lead you to the 'men are inherently evil' view and TERFism.
I'm so happy you brought this up; I think you'll love the "Taking the Pink Pill" section of this paper, which gets into how this stuff shows up on dating TikTok and other spaces that supposedly teach women how to land 'high value men': https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14680777.2024.2393187#d1e532
It's interesting how much it mirrors the manosphere content and sort of reduces all of human interaction to gender essentialist game theory. very bleak lol
I’m just here for the footnotes
Okay I am so late to finishing this, but wow, this episode was incredible. Creating work that is simultaneously rigorous, accessible, engaging, and funny is difficult to do, but you two seem to do it every time. Really great job.
there are not enough words in the english language to articulate how this comment made me feel, D.J., thank you so much for leaving it 🥹
🥲🥲
So Isabelle cherry picked her data, with resident physicians salaries. Resident physician salary is controlled in a top down government mandated manner. So of course the wage gap is zero when you start your career as a physician.
I didn't realize this about government-mandated salaries for resident physicians! thanks for sharing. I just remembered seeing the Health Affairs study that very clearly proves the controlled wage gap is alive and well in medicine so I was like, bullshit alarm is screeching lmao
Had a dream last night that you released a 5 hour diabolical lies episode…. and I was…. thrilled lol
i lolled
HA
Happy to hear someone talking about how the republican plan for women is simply for us to “marry rich”.
I feel this point is missed in many conversations about this. Logistically if all women left the workforce most families could not and would not survive being thrown deep (or deeper) into poverty.
I definitely think it’s interesting that you point out that the author sounds like they hate men. It can definitely be easy and honestly understandable for women to have this view that all men are awful. This view is often shaped by trauma but it acts like men are these evil beings and doesn’t dig into how the patriarchy has also impacted men.
The Institute of Family Studies and its connection with UVA is just beyond my understanding. Is there a comparable progressive Institute that UVA sponsors/funds? And W. Bradford Wilcox. Don't even get me started. Just last week UVA named him a "University Professor, one of the University’s most prestigious appointments." All the eyerolls here. The IFS research is not reviewed; they don't allow comments on their articles to point out contra research; and, the man clearly has an agenda -- all marriage all the time for all the things b/c marriage is a cure-all for everything. And yet IFS (and Wilcox himself) doesn't support any family-friendly policies. IFS wants women in the home no matter what and they are quick to blame women's high expectations for male loneliness and declining birthrates -- you know, blame women rather than educate men on how to be better partners. The Wilcox message is literally, "just settle" -- not only does he mean settle-down and get married, but actually, literally, settle for less, expect less. Fuck that shit.
https://news.virginia.edu/content/researcher-family-newest-university-professor
(I'm the parent of 2 UVA recent grads and about to be a UVA grad student myself this upcoming year)
Caro in this podcast had me laughing at loud! “I’m kind of scared to find out who is considered an academic in this space.”
another stellar ep!!!
Omg make my day why don’t you
In Caro’s point of women hated/were terrified of childbirth because they could die…
In addition to all the normal risks of pregnancy, the more kids you have the higher the risk for a hemorrhage, and this was one of the main reasons people died in the 1800s and before then because they did not have access to medication’s to prevent these hemorrhages, blood transfusions, etc.
Not sure on this 24 hour male cycle but 😂 it’s probably from the same people who wrote a book saying birth control affects how you are attracted to people and makes you want to choose the bad boys so 🤷♀️
Great ep as always. Started listening to "who cooked Adam Smith's dinner" (yay library!) and was almost immediately reminded of a book I was gifted a while back (maybe a decade now) called "The Intellectual Life". The gist of the book is basically "here's how to organize your life so you can be an intellectual" and it basically tells the reader to ignore all household labor (that's for your wife), don't spend that much time with your kids (that's for your wife), and a number of other things. I would use different language now, but I remember being super bothered with it then because it just seemed to be saying "abandon your family to pursue being an 'intellectual'".
I think that we have so much of our society built around these ideas that were just based on a very specific person or group of people and now we all have to live with it (eg Adam Smith). Western intellectual supremacy yada yada but it's all tied together.
I know y'all make some of these connections too, but this "reactionary feminism" you go through just has to fit hand in hand with the opposite "alpha male" who has to work over and above in his job, some side gig on top of that, be in tip top shape, etc etc - ignoring all the underlying labor required to make that lifestyle possible.
Think it's good and important to harp over and over on the WEAK IMAGINATIONS that exist if that is the ultimate ideal.
Also, couldn't help but think about how different Bell Hooks' "feminism is for everybody" is than the fourth-wave(?) feminism outlined that spouted the same!
James, this makes me think of an ex of mine that was a PhD professor. He was describing what his doctorate program was like, and all I could think was, "Wow, you have to be incredibly selfish to get through this program." I'm sure that's not always the case, but the way he did it sure put his wife at the time in a difficult position (moving to several states, sacrificing her personal life for his career, etc.). His salary as a professor (even after tenure) was eclipsed by her salary as an engineer.
Another absolute banger of an episode!!
Also listening back I can’t find the exact spot, but there’s a mention somewhere in here to the tune of “one parent staying home to offset the cost of out-of-home childcare is a failure of capitalism [the economic system]”… is that linked anywhere? Would love to read if so. If that was just Katie going off the top, standing ovation!
i wish i could claim credit for that one! that was kathryn edwards, an economist. she's great. it's a quote from this piece: https://www.kedits.com/p/marry-rich-thats-the-republican-plan
Thank you!! Adore this duo, keep it up!
There are multiple studies in Canada which show a gender pay gap in medicine, when controlled for hours, and specialty choice. Also, interestingly - procedures for women are paid less… so specialties which treat women are paid less (gyne).
This is true! To the point that circumcisions for BABIES are reimbursed very close to a vaginal delivery when you look at RVU which is the units they use to calculate reimbursement. Which is 🤯
*feigns shock* cc Isabel brown
There is a prominent Mormon speaker and byu professor named Brad Wilcox who constantly has absolutely horrible takes and when you brought up W Bradford Wilcox my heart literally stopped for a second lmao
So far love this episode and not even an hour in, but I wanted to weigh in on Katie‘s amazing data evidence for the gender pay gap in medicine. One of the main reasons for this is the fact that women tend to negotiate less than men and two often tend to be like less vocal about the iniquities that we face in the workplace. Linda Street, who is an MFM in Georgia, has a course specifically dedicated to women physicians to help them in their negotiation for better compensation as a whole and empowering them to advocate at the same level that men do in the profession.
As for testosterone in women. It is normal for women to have testosterone but the high levels can hinder ovulation and increase risk for endometrial cancer for example. For women with PCOSS they are not put on the pill to lower the testosterone but really to reduce excess estrogen exposure and lower the risk of endometrial cancer.
thank you for this info, especially the bit about testosterone! re: negotiation: i've read papers about negotiation parity more generally (not medicine specific) that suggest the negotiation gap has mostly closed, so this is interesting to hear w/r/t the medical field.
(reference: https://hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them)
The reason is we are taught none of this in medschool . Often men tend to teach other men this in their training but not necessarily teach the women. If you have good mentors you may learn this hut otherwise it’s a “figure it out on your own” kinda thing.
I was waiting on yall to draw a line between women giving up freedom in the name of "collapsing capitalism" to Americans giving up privacy for security a la the Patriot Act.