I am from NJ and went to College of Charleston. It felt like being on another planet. I was an older transfer student and majored in elementary education and was surrounded by sorority girls all the time. I was fascinated by them and they sometimes really gave me the ick. I remember sitting behind a girl once wearing a shirt that said “if you weren’t there, it’s because we didn’t invite you.” There were lots of tees in the room with very exclusionary language on them. It felt so mean girl. And it made me uncomfortable that these girls were the future teachers of America. Particularly in the South with so many children of color in the classroom. This was 25ish years ago and I think about it a lot. I didn’t understand race then the way I do now, but looking back it’s appalling.
I recently read Among the Bros by Max Marshall about the CofC fraternity drug trafficking ring and it mirrors many of the same points you make in this podcast. It clearly paints the picture that the roots of white supremacy and patriarchy are in these organizations and those same men are in the highest positions of power in our country. Only a handful of presidents are not in a fraternity. The whole time I was reading it I couldn’t stop thinking about the connection to trad wives. You feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist but you start to see just how connected all these things are.
Bree, Max Marshall is one of my good friends—he went to high school with my husband! His book is such a masterpiece, I'm so happy you read it (I was going to suggest it when you brought up C of C!).
Aug 18Liked by caro claire burke, Katie Gatti Tassin
I was in the pledge class above Katie in Tri Delt at Bama and I felt so much of this on such a visceral level…going with the sorority more nationally well known, to those exact feelings on bid day to pledge retreat just sitting in that giant hotel ballroom/conference room and having the realization like “oh my god what the f did I just get myself into?”😂. Katie you do a phenomenal job explaining all of this and sharing your experience and I think y’all’s conversation and commentary on this whole subject matter is just fantastic! Also I definitely have had nightmares of either being forced to pomp in my life now or not having done any of what I was supposed to do and getting fined😂🤣
Coming back for a 2nd comment. These episodes always get me thinking. I previously stated I had a mostly positive experience in my sorority (20+ years ago). But what is interesting is how it reinforces all the class hierarchy. As a married woman with no kids, who lives in a smaller city, I struggled with making friends as an adult until I started traveling with an all female travel group. It is wonderful and I have met so many amazing women who have so many things in common with me.
But what I also realized was how my prior life and upbringing had essentially encouraged me to only be friends with petite, white, blond haired women who looked A LOT like me. Since there are SO many layers to the class and race conversation, I'll just stick to a less serious one. All of my friends from high school and college are very petite. Our tallest friend in my college friend group is 5'6"....
When I met women through travel, I found I had all sorts of friends. I have good friends who are overweight. Friends who are 6' tall. It seems minor until you realize how much of the world is excluded from your view. Even in my professional career, until I started working with clients outside of the South, the majority of my peers looked like they came out of a frat or sorority house.
This is only a partially baked thought.. but it is something I cant stop thinking about.
The way I found time to listen to this ASAP... I went to a very Southern school with a very strong greek life. I was from FL, so I was not Southern. I identify so much w/ the comment about this being the place for Type A women.
I wanted to get the Southern sorority to pick me, just to prove to myself I could. I ended up doing the opposite of Katie. At pref, I selected the sorority that I felt the most at home at (also a very strong one, but not as Southern - ie, they let in beautiful girls from NJ), vs the one that I wanted to like me. It was the right choice. I feel certain I would have experienced SUCH an identity crisis trying to conform to be the amazing hostess. One thing that continues to be specific in my experience to the South is how homogenous it is. Even down to clothes, interests, etc. No one values uniqueness.
I loved my sorority experience for all the built in social events and friendships. My best friends were in my pledge class and we are still close 20+ years later. For better or worse, I was so unaware of how messed up it all was, because in many ways, it mimicked what I aspired to growing up. Women are indoctrinated in striving for very specific feminized things from such an early age. I just felt proud to have "achieved"
Aug 18Liked by caro claire burke, Katie Gatti Tassin
Pomping!!! I remember finding out what it was as a new student University of Missouri and thinking "that is the fucking stupidest thing I've ever heard of" and completely writing off Greek Life at every level as a result. And then never hearing about it again and feeling like I hallucinated it.
It felt doubly abusive to me because homecoming always lands either right before or right on midterms. So, it wasn't just 8hrs/day, it is making a bunch of type-A girls *not* focus on academics their very 1st set of exams.
I was Alpha Phi at UVA until deactivating my 3rd year. I taught group fitness classes at the AFC as a part-time job and had to miss a rush-practice (ugh) event on a Sunday in early fall (rush is in January as Caro explained) to teach a cycle class. They fined me $50 and I only made $9 to teach the class. No. I don’t think I’m technically “allowed” to say I was in that sorority since I deactivated but wow what a weird scare tactic even as I was exiting!!
Listening to this felt like it resolved some of my own college and sorority-related trauma so thank you both.
Wow, Elly, thank you so much for listening — it has been wildly affirming to hear similar things from other women who felt weirdly about a lot of it because I feel like I just moved on with my life and never revisited a lot of this until now.
I have so many thoughts on this and am so grateful for the trauma bond in listening to this episode. Thank you Katie and Caro. Bama Rush Tok is like listening to serial killer pods; no one believed me when I tried to explain how wild it was to go through and I'm spitefully glad that the world now sees it through this weird window. I grew up in Southwest Colorado and went to Bama for two years starting in 2011 (basically the reverse experience to Katie) and went through Bama Rush with absolutely no clue what this looked like. I was genuinely traumatized on levels I will be deconstructing for the rest of my life. My parents called it my foreign exchange and it's still the best two truths and a lie fact I can pull out about myself.
Here are some points that came to mind while listening:
1. The exhaustion and emotional manipulation of rush week closely mirror that of bible camps from what I understand of bible camps (not from a religious household). They exhaust you (both PNMs and actives) all week until sisterhood or pref night causing these emotional breakdowns that make it seem possible that the emotions are due to the connection to something greater (god or sisterhood) than that of not taking care of yourself for a whole week or two right after leaving all familiar comforts. I remember an AOII sobbing to me on pref night about how she felt so strongly that I belonged in the house and how certain I was to run home to her. When I ended up not getting that house, I ran into her a few days later on campus and was eager to say hello and express how sad I was to have not gotten AOII. She had NO memory of who I was. That completely shattered the facade for me and created some serious trust issues.
2. The house I got my bid to and was in for all of 24 hours had been recently dubbed the "fat ugly girl house" because they had accepted a non-white member just a few years before and were trying to recoup their reputation. This was before the protests in 2013 and they've clearly since climbed back up based on TikTok. Frats would schedule date parties with them and then wait to cancel the morning of to purposefully mess with them. As Katie said, we were explicitly told to not wear or use certain things for no real practical reason other than "do this because guys like it, don't do this because guys don't like it."
3. Bama Rush has overshadowed so many of the other cultures on that campus even for my own memory. I made some of my best friends at Bama and had some incredibly eye-opening experiences for being a little skateboarding tomboy from a small ski town in Colorado. I got to experience my first Queer Voguing scene in a dining hall and had my first real queer community that sparked my slow reconciliation with my queerness. I went to hardcore and punk shows that I never expected and I was a part of a thriving dance, theater, and arts community that has produced some incredible talent that has gone on to take international and Broadway stages. Even in my own memory, Bama Rush still takes over my memory of the whole two years which is unfair to the other people, cultures, and countercultures that had positive impacts on me and have come out of resilience and fighting oppressive systems. Bama Rush being the face of Bama doesn't do justice to what is wonderful about that community and sadly starts off all those young girls' experiences off with an experience that is so manipulative, it's hard to override in memory. This is all to sort of remind people to not dismiss these places as a whole in general but especially heading into election season as the people most likely to be impacted by harmful policies are not already in safe blue states but are fighting much bigger monsters. Listen to queer, non-white, disabled, and displaced people in the south because it's not all Bama Rush type folks down there.
4. Changing locations can absolutely help you dismantle these ideas and I'm so glad Colorado has been that space for Katie. I also would argue that Colorado and general "outdoorsy" places have their own ways of commodifying womanhood or setting standards of belonging as such places and lifestyles have become increasingly desirable. Having lived most of the rest of my life in Colorado and Utah being a quintessential "outdoorsy" gal, moving to Richmond, VA in 2020 challenged me to think about how I also hold people within these subcultures up to capitalistic standards of belonging to sports, lifestyles, or claims. Just this one I fit into more easily within my whiteness than I did in something like Bama Rush. These systems we're working to dismantle include the subcultures we feel just as much rescued by as we need rescuing from. I think it's important to reflect these cultural conversations into our current places of belonging because we're always just a few degrees away from white supremacy driving the boat if we don't stay vigilant.
I so identified with Kat Stratford by the time I was a freshmen in college that I chose not to rush. But deep down inside, it was because I knew there was a strong chance I wouldn't get a bid because I was a funny, have brown hair, and didn't come from money. As an adult, I sometimes regret that choice because so many people I know use their Greek affiliations for business development and adult friendship. But listening to this, I feel pretty strongly that I would be in the same boat as Caro, and I don't know if I could handle that kind of rejection at that age. Better to reject them before they can reject me, am I righ!?!
I am from NJ and went to College of Charleston. It felt like being on another planet. I was an older transfer student and majored in elementary education and was surrounded by sorority girls all the time. I was fascinated by them and they sometimes really gave me the ick. I remember sitting behind a girl once wearing a shirt that said “if you weren’t there, it’s because we didn’t invite you.” There were lots of tees in the room with very exclusionary language on them. It felt so mean girl. And it made me uncomfortable that these girls were the future teachers of America. Particularly in the South with so many children of color in the classroom. This was 25ish years ago and I think about it a lot. I didn’t understand race then the way I do now, but looking back it’s appalling.
I recently read Among the Bros by Max Marshall about the CofC fraternity drug trafficking ring and it mirrors many of the same points you make in this podcast. It clearly paints the picture that the roots of white supremacy and patriarchy are in these organizations and those same men are in the highest positions of power in our country. Only a handful of presidents are not in a fraternity. The whole time I was reading it I couldn’t stop thinking about the connection to trad wives. You feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist but you start to see just how connected all these things are.
Bree, Max Marshall is one of my good friends—he went to high school with my husband! His book is such a masterpiece, I'm so happy you read it (I was going to suggest it when you brought up C of C!).
The world is so small! You can tell him I used it as a source for a paper that I wrote for grad school last semester!
I was in the pledge class above Katie in Tri Delt at Bama and I felt so much of this on such a visceral level…going with the sorority more nationally well known, to those exact feelings on bid day to pledge retreat just sitting in that giant hotel ballroom/conference room and having the realization like “oh my god what the f did I just get myself into?”😂. Katie you do a phenomenal job explaining all of this and sharing your experience and I think y’all’s conversation and commentary on this whole subject matter is just fantastic! Also I definitely have had nightmares of either being forced to pomp in my life now or not having done any of what I was supposed to do and getting fined😂🤣
Omg hi Claire thank you for this! As soon as I read “grade above Katie in tridelt” I went “oh fuck” until I read the rest 😂
Claire I’d just like to personally apologize to you on behalf of All Women for all the stupid little toilet paper twisting you had to do
Coming back for a 2nd comment. These episodes always get me thinking. I previously stated I had a mostly positive experience in my sorority (20+ years ago). But what is interesting is how it reinforces all the class hierarchy. As a married woman with no kids, who lives in a smaller city, I struggled with making friends as an adult until I started traveling with an all female travel group. It is wonderful and I have met so many amazing women who have so many things in common with me.
But what I also realized was how my prior life and upbringing had essentially encouraged me to only be friends with petite, white, blond haired women who looked A LOT like me. Since there are SO many layers to the class and race conversation, I'll just stick to a less serious one. All of my friends from high school and college are very petite. Our tallest friend in my college friend group is 5'6"....
When I met women through travel, I found I had all sorts of friends. I have good friends who are overweight. Friends who are 6' tall. It seems minor until you realize how much of the world is excluded from your view. Even in my professional career, until I started working with clients outside of the South, the majority of my peers looked like they came out of a frat or sorority house.
This is only a partially baked thought.. but it is something I cant stop thinking about.
The way I found time to listen to this ASAP... I went to a very Southern school with a very strong greek life. I was from FL, so I was not Southern. I identify so much w/ the comment about this being the place for Type A women.
I wanted to get the Southern sorority to pick me, just to prove to myself I could. I ended up doing the opposite of Katie. At pref, I selected the sorority that I felt the most at home at (also a very strong one, but not as Southern - ie, they let in beautiful girls from NJ), vs the one that I wanted to like me. It was the right choice. I feel certain I would have experienced SUCH an identity crisis trying to conform to be the amazing hostess. One thing that continues to be specific in my experience to the South is how homogenous it is. Even down to clothes, interests, etc. No one values uniqueness.
I loved my sorority experience for all the built in social events and friendships. My best friends were in my pledge class and we are still close 20+ years later. For better or worse, I was so unaware of how messed up it all was, because in many ways, it mimicked what I aspired to growing up. Women are indoctrinated in striving for very specific feminized things from such an early age. I just felt proud to have "achieved"
Pomping!!! I remember finding out what it was as a new student University of Missouri and thinking "that is the fucking stupidest thing I've ever heard of" and completely writing off Greek Life at every level as a result. And then never hearing about it again and feeling like I hallucinated it.
I had no idea that this was not specific to Alabama!
It felt doubly abusive to me because homecoming always lands either right before or right on midterms. So, it wasn't just 8hrs/day, it is making a bunch of type-A girls *not* focus on academics their very 1st set of exams.
i will never be the same now that I know this information
Been waiting for this. Sick in bed with a fever and pressing play for next 90 min 💛
I hope you enjoy it (and that you feel better)!
Loved this episode!
I was Alpha Phi at UVA until deactivating my 3rd year. I taught group fitness classes at the AFC as a part-time job and had to miss a rush-practice (ugh) event on a Sunday in early fall (rush is in January as Caro explained) to teach a cycle class. They fined me $50 and I only made $9 to teach the class. No. I don’t think I’m technically “allowed” to say I was in that sorority since I deactivated but wow what a weird scare tactic even as I was exiting!!
Listening to this felt like it resolved some of my own college and sorority-related trauma so thank you both.
Wow, Elly, thank you so much for listening — it has been wildly affirming to hear similar things from other women who felt weirdly about a lot of it because I feel like I just moved on with my life and never revisited a lot of this until now.
I have so many thoughts on this and am so grateful for the trauma bond in listening to this episode. Thank you Katie and Caro. Bama Rush Tok is like listening to serial killer pods; no one believed me when I tried to explain how wild it was to go through and I'm spitefully glad that the world now sees it through this weird window. I grew up in Southwest Colorado and went to Bama for two years starting in 2011 (basically the reverse experience to Katie) and went through Bama Rush with absolutely no clue what this looked like. I was genuinely traumatized on levels I will be deconstructing for the rest of my life. My parents called it my foreign exchange and it's still the best two truths and a lie fact I can pull out about myself.
Here are some points that came to mind while listening:
1. The exhaustion and emotional manipulation of rush week closely mirror that of bible camps from what I understand of bible camps (not from a religious household). They exhaust you (both PNMs and actives) all week until sisterhood or pref night causing these emotional breakdowns that make it seem possible that the emotions are due to the connection to something greater (god or sisterhood) than that of not taking care of yourself for a whole week or two right after leaving all familiar comforts. I remember an AOII sobbing to me on pref night about how she felt so strongly that I belonged in the house and how certain I was to run home to her. When I ended up not getting that house, I ran into her a few days later on campus and was eager to say hello and express how sad I was to have not gotten AOII. She had NO memory of who I was. That completely shattered the facade for me and created some serious trust issues.
2. The house I got my bid to and was in for all of 24 hours had been recently dubbed the "fat ugly girl house" because they had accepted a non-white member just a few years before and were trying to recoup their reputation. This was before the protests in 2013 and they've clearly since climbed back up based on TikTok. Frats would schedule date parties with them and then wait to cancel the morning of to purposefully mess with them. As Katie said, we were explicitly told to not wear or use certain things for no real practical reason other than "do this because guys like it, don't do this because guys don't like it."
3. Bama Rush has overshadowed so many of the other cultures on that campus even for my own memory. I made some of my best friends at Bama and had some incredibly eye-opening experiences for being a little skateboarding tomboy from a small ski town in Colorado. I got to experience my first Queer Voguing scene in a dining hall and had my first real queer community that sparked my slow reconciliation with my queerness. I went to hardcore and punk shows that I never expected and I was a part of a thriving dance, theater, and arts community that has produced some incredible talent that has gone on to take international and Broadway stages. Even in my own memory, Bama Rush still takes over my memory of the whole two years which is unfair to the other people, cultures, and countercultures that had positive impacts on me and have come out of resilience and fighting oppressive systems. Bama Rush being the face of Bama doesn't do justice to what is wonderful about that community and sadly starts off all those young girls' experiences off with an experience that is so manipulative, it's hard to override in memory. This is all to sort of remind people to not dismiss these places as a whole in general but especially heading into election season as the people most likely to be impacted by harmful policies are not already in safe blue states but are fighting much bigger monsters. Listen to queer, non-white, disabled, and displaced people in the south because it's not all Bama Rush type folks down there.
4. Changing locations can absolutely help you dismantle these ideas and I'm so glad Colorado has been that space for Katie. I also would argue that Colorado and general "outdoorsy" places have their own ways of commodifying womanhood or setting standards of belonging as such places and lifestyles have become increasingly desirable. Having lived most of the rest of my life in Colorado and Utah being a quintessential "outdoorsy" gal, moving to Richmond, VA in 2020 challenged me to think about how I also hold people within these subcultures up to capitalistic standards of belonging to sports, lifestyles, or claims. Just this one I fit into more easily within my whiteness than I did in something like Bama Rush. These systems we're working to dismantle include the subcultures we feel just as much rescued by as we need rescuing from. I think it's important to reflect these cultural conversations into our current places of belonging because we're always just a few degrees away from white supremacy driving the boat if we don't stay vigilant.
I so identified with Kat Stratford by the time I was a freshmen in college that I chose not to rush. But deep down inside, it was because I knew there was a strong chance I wouldn't get a bid because I was a funny, have brown hair, and didn't come from money. As an adult, I sometimes regret that choice because so many people I know use their Greek affiliations for business development and adult friendship. But listening to this, I feel pretty strongly that I would be in the same boat as Caro, and I don't know if I could handle that kind of rejection at that age. Better to reject them before they can reject me, am I righ!?!